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 Betreff des Beitrags: Making a country in BAHN
BeitragVerfasst: Mittwoch 2. Mai 2018, 12:56 
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Registriert: Dienstag 20. Januar 2009, 18:53
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Hi everyone,

I have been wanting to make my country Denmark for a while in BAHN, but the huge undertaking has scared me. I am not sure how to do it, and the problem is that I want to do it right from the first try. I remember there was at some point (10-15 years ago) some layout made by a Dane, but his website is down for many years now and I can't find the layout anywhere. This leaves me free to start from scratch, but how?

My biggest worries are:
Distances: How to make the distances be 100% correct without having stations look all wibbly-wobbly
Scheduling: Make one consist follow a schedule throughout the day, e.g. start with R 2125 then reverse to R2128 then reverse to R 4219 and so on. How do I use the capabilities of the newest version of BAHN fully? Especially since I want to build (at least smaller) stations exactly 1:1 in regards to track placement, turnouts and signals. This is a difficult question, as I would prefer assigning trains train numbers and destinations rather than routes. Maybe there's a demo layout that uses destinations?
Speed: I know the max speed in Denmark is up to 180 kph, but when the trains are on time they rarely go above 140-150 kph. Supposing BAHN is paradise and everything is always on time, how can this be simulated in BAHN? Or should I just lower line speed respectively? Is there a setting to allow on-time trains to lower their speed?
Signalling: On smaller single track lines in Denmark they have saved money and only allow for one train at a time to enter a meeting station, something to do with safety distance behind the exit signal overlapping the main switch in the opposite direction. How can this be simulated in BAHN without overcomplicating it?
Also, some signal types (PU) when exiting stations all show the same aspect (i.e. in BAHN they're the same signal system), but when the train passes one of several on its way out of the station it switches to red light without affecting the others. How can this be simulated in BAHN? Or is it best to wait with such details until later?
Vehicles: Not such a big worry, but there are not many Danish vehicles in standard BAHN. Is there a guide (in German is also ok) that explains how to make custom vehicles with correct length?
Workflow: Seeing this as a giant undertaking, impossible to finish at once... How would you proceed? Start by building all infrastructure and then add trains? Build one line and add trains? Progress region by region or line by line? Begin in the busiest region or a calm region?

I don't want to use BAHN 4, having tried and compared it to BAHN 3 already. Newest version is 3.88 if I remember right. I hope to receive good input and maybe being able to publish a layout with at least one running train by this summer :wink:

Thanks!
-Matias


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 Betreff des Beitrags: Re: Making a country in BAHN
BeitragVerfasst: Donnerstag 3. Mai 2018, 09:15 
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Hi,

This is quite much for a simple answer...

1993matias hat geschrieben:
Hi everyone,

Distances: How to make the distances be 100% correct without having stations look all wibbly-wobbly


By my mind, 100% is impossible. You need to accept some compromise.

A good technique would be to create a pixel map and to use it as background picture. So you have at least the locations of stations and other important points in correct scale.
I recommend to use a scale of about 60..70 elements per km. For Denmark this seems to be possible because the area is not so large - except Greenland ;-)

1993matias hat geschrieben:
Scheduling: Make one consist follow a schedule throughout the day, e.g. start with R 2125 then reverse to R2128 then reverse to R 4219 and so on.


This is possible using data change points.

1993matias hat geschrieben:
How do I use the capabilities of the newest version of BAHN fully?


I don't know. For the most situations you need a part of the capabilities only.

1993matias hat geschrieben:
Especially since I want to build (at least smaller) stations exactly 1:1 in regards to track placement, turnouts and signals...


With BAHN 3.88 it is possible to build it much more exactly than before, by using itineraries for signalling. I tried it for some stations in Germany - to be found in layouts like Chemnitz, Zwickau and Dresden.

1993matias hat geschrieben:
I would prefer assigning trains train numbers and destinations rather than routes. Maybe there's a demo layout that uses destinations?


There are many layouts where destinations are in use. But mostly I have added them for information only. However, it seems to be simple to use destinations in conditions instead of route codes, or to combine both.

1993matias hat geschrieben:
Speed: I know the max speed in Denmark is up to 180 kph, but when the trains are on time they rarely go above 140-150 kph. Supposing BAHN is paradise and everything is always on time, how can this be simulated in BAHN? Or should I just lower line speed respectively?


This is one common technique. Another is to let wait the trains in the (more important) stations by using timing points or time-depending signals.

1993matias hat geschrieben:
Is there a setting to allow on-time trains to lower their speed?


Currently not, but this will be introduced with BAHN 3.89.

1993matias hat geschrieben:
Signalling: On smaller single track lines in Denmark they have saved money and only allow for one train at a time to enter a meeting station, something to do with safety distance behind the exit signal overlapping the main switch in the opposite direction. How can this be simulated in BAHN without overcomplicating it?


I am not sure about it. In general, you need some more signalling in BAHN than in original because of 100% automated service. Some of the signalling in BAHN is needed to do a job that is done by staff in original.

1993matias hat geschrieben:
Also, some signal types (PU) when exiting stations all show the same aspect (i.e. in BAHN they're the same signal system), but when the train passes one of several on its way out of the station it switches to red light without affecting the others. How can this be simulated in BAHN? Or is it best to wait with such details until later?


Maybe. The best to make others to understand the situation is to create an example in a small layout.

1993matias hat geschrieben:
Vehicles: Not such a big worry, but there are not many Danish vehicles in standard BAHN.


With BAHN 3.89 there will come up some more and revised and in newer liveries, e.g. some trams, DSB classes EA, EG, MY, ER(IR4), MR/MRD, ME(IC3) and double-decker coaches.

Further you should take a look in the "user-defined graphics" section of this message board. AFAIR there were shown some Danish vehicles in the past, maybe including download possibility.

1993matias hat geschrieben:
Is there a guide (in German is also ok) that explains how to make custom vehicles with correct length?


Some info can be found at my web site, some in the BAHN Help. But a complete guide as text or video - I don't know.
The most vehicles in BAHN are made for a layout scale of about 64 elements/km. BAHN and the NFZ-Editor calculate and display length data for this scale.

1993matias hat geschrieben:
Workflow: Seeing this as a giant undertaking, impossible to finish at once... How would you proceed? Start by building all infrastructure and then add trains?


No. This would take too much time before you can see the first success.

Further, especially the signalling is complicated and will lead to some frustration. To make it run, you need to add services step-by-step, to test it and then to add the next.

1993matias hat geschrieben:
Build one line and add trains? Progress region by region or line by line?


Definitely I would prefer this way. Line by line when the services are independent. But you will have some trains passing multiple lines, resulting in need to build some lines parallely or with temporary terminals and/or depots.

1993matias hat geschrieben:
Begin in the busiest region or a calm region?


Begin in a region that you are familiar yourself. For all the others you will need more and more time to get and understand data about infrastructure, scheduling and used vehicle types.

With kind regards and wishing success,
Jan B.


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 Betreff des Beitrags: Re: Making a country in BAHN
BeitragVerfasst: Donnerstag 3. Mai 2018, 18:35 
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Registriert: Montag 17. März 2003, 15:55
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Hi,

wow, what a project! I wish you a lot of time and hope that you will once finish it!
1993matias hat geschrieben:
Signalling: On smaller single track lines in Denmark they have saved money and only allow for one train at a time to enter a meeting station, something to do with safety distance behind the exit signal overlapping the main switch in the opposite direction. How can this be simulated in BAHN without overcomplicating it?

the problem with overlaps is similiar to the one discussed here:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4308#p64100
I gave one possible solution there. Another one might be to release the route just when the first train arrives at the normal stop position by positioning the releasing signal-contact right there and make sure that there is an incompatibility between the two routes. Of course this solution does not exactly deal with the real time restrictions, but on the other hand it is relatively easy to handle.

Kind regards,
Jan


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 Betreff des Beitrags: Re: Making a country in BAHN
BeitragVerfasst: Sonntag 6. Mai 2018, 11:17 
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Thank you both for your answers!
I think I'll stick to a simpler (yet still itinerary based) signalling system, so probably not simulate real life in 1:1. Takes a lot of work away :)

I imported Denmark with ops2jbss (that took quite some time...) and almost finished the first rural line (Holbæk-Nykøbing). I fear the big stations!

Jan B, you mention using itineraries instead of route codes as a condition, how do I do that? Or is it just an idea you have?
Also, if you need any help with drawing the graphics of Danish vehicles, I'll be more than happy to help! They've just repainted the first ET (Swedish X31K) in new colours and they are almost finished with the first IC3 in new colours too :) I can also help with class MG (IC4) which you didn't seem to have mentioned and repaints of LINT 41 in different Danish paint schemes.

Jan E, yes it is quite a project. I'm not sure I'll finish all of it, but as long as I finish some it is a good thing for me :)


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 Betreff des Beitrags: Re: Making a country in BAHN
BeitragVerfasst: Dienstag 8. Mai 2018, 02:22 
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Registriert: Donnerstag 24. Mai 2007, 02:26
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Wohnort: Cardiff
Hej Matias,

1993matias hat geschrieben:
I have been wanting to make my country Denmark for a while in BAHN, but the huge undertaking has scared me. I am not sure how to do it, and the problem is that I want to do it right from the first try. I remember there was at some point (10-15 years ago) some layout made by a Dane, but his website is down for many years now and I can't find the layout anywhere. This leaves me free to start from scratch, but how?


This may sound obvious, but a little bit at a time. ;-)

Here are some insights from my attempt to model Wales.

  • You won't get everything right first time, no matter how hard you try. Work on a "best effort" basis - produce what you can based on the information available to you.
  • Pick your conventions fairly early and stick to them. You will have to compromise between the layout and real life, so decide what would count as an acceptable break from reality (in Britain we call this "modeller's licence").
  • Accept that this will always be a work in progress, and progress may at times be slow. Project Cambria has been in train in some form or another for almost a decade.
  • Favour a working layout over accuracy. Cambria currently has a notional "representative" timetable, which at least shows where trains run in a roughly clock-face pattern.
  • For checking that your junctions work properly with itineraries, make point labels visible. For itinerary-dependent points, the labels will light up when locked.

My own workflow is to lay tracks, speed limits, signal locations (where known), and then to get trains running over the section. Making the signalling work is optional except where it isn't. The message log tells me where I must do something, and if I can't make it work properly I rig it to at least prevent collisions. I've also got a spreadsheet to keep track of how much I've done in terms of track mileage so that I can see that I'm making progress. (It's currently at 26% of everything, and 40% of South Wales outside Cardiff.)

I don't know where the Danes took their practices from, but even if it's nothing like British operation you may find something in my layout worth studying. Some things will require looking at the properties of signal systems, but the only two things that are distinctly non-obvious are the dummy signals to make distant indications work (will not be required for 3.89) and allowing trains at Cardiff Central to pre-select the route over the junction to the west without locking it.

I hope some of this is helpful, and (most importantly) enjoy the project.


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 Betreff des Beitrags: Re: Making a country in BAHN
BeitragVerfasst: Dienstag 8. Mai 2018, 11:01 
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Thanks for the input. Right now I feel I'm making a lot of progress fast (~140 kms up and running), but I am not using any signals at all yet - and it's mostly branch lines. I am leaving that for later, hoping it would not cause too much havoc at a later point.
We'll see how it goes when I reach the busy mainlines :P


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 Betreff des Beitrags: Re: Making a country in BAHN
BeitragVerfasst: Mittwoch 9. Mai 2018, 10:53 
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Hello,

1993matias hat geschrieben:
I think I'll stick to a simpler (yet still itinerary based) signalling system, so probably not simulate real life in 1:1. Takes a lot of work away :)


Yes, and you could improve it later if needed.

1993matias hat geschrieben:
Jan B, you mention using itineraries instead of route codes as a condition, how do I do that? Or is it just an idea you have?


Not "instead". Often, to enter and exit a station, there is a variety of itineraries from the same start track. To request one of them for a certain train, you need to give some condition, like route code, or destination, or train number, or train name, or time etc., or a combination of that. This way it makes no real difference whether you would use route codes or destinations.
In former times, route codes were the only condition that could be used to distinct different trains in BAHN.

1993matias hat geschrieben:
Also, if you need any help with drawing the graphics of Danish vehicles, I'll be more than happy to help! They've just repainted the first ET (Swedish X31K) in new colours and they are almost finished with the first IC3 in new colours too :) I can also help with class MG (IC4) which you didn't seem to have mentioned and repaints of LINT 41 in different Danish paint schemes.


The current status of Danish standard vehicles in BAHN (3.89beta) is shown as follows. Any more - if missing - would be needed to get added.

Bild

Kind regards,
Jan B.


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 Betreff des Beitrags: Re: Making a country in BAHN
BeitragVerfasst: Mittwoch 9. Mai 2018, 21:40 
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Jan Bochmann hat geschrieben:
Hello,
1993matias hat geschrieben:
Jan B, you mention using itineraries instead of route codes as a condition, how do I do that? Or is it just an idea you have?


Not "instead". Often, to enter and exit a station, there is a variety of itineraries from the same start track. To request one of them for a certain train, you need to give some condition, like route code, or destination, or train number, or train name, or time etc., or a combination of that. This way it makes no real difference whether you would use route codes or destinations.
In former times, route codes were the only condition that could be used to distinct different trains in BAHN.

I see, so an itinerary reserves the track all the way until the release point?
Jan Bochmann hat geschrieben:
The current status of Danish standard vehicles in BAHN (3.89beta) is shown as follows. Any more - if missing - would be needed to get added.
[image]

Wow, that's an impressive addition of vehicles! Very nice to see! Most importantly though, the diesel locomotive class ME is missing in its four different paint schemes (I'd be happy to conribute).

Is there any way of extracting single vehicles for repainting? Some Lint 41 need new paint to drive on my Danish layout :)


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 Betreff des Beitrags: Re: Making a country in BAHN
BeitragVerfasst: Donnerstag 10. Mai 2018, 19:35 
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Wo kann man die Fahrzeuge her bekommen die sehen ja suppi aus ;-)


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 Betreff des Beitrags: Re: Making a country in BAHN
BeitragVerfasst: Donnerstag 10. Mai 2018, 19:48 
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Just a short update. Current track lineage built and ready for trains: 320 kms (of which in use around 250 kms). See the map below for details on where the trains go.

To reply Dispothomas: I think the vehicles are available in BAHN 3.89 beta version :)


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 Betreff des Beitrags: Re: Making a country in BAHN
BeitragVerfasst: Freitag 11. Mai 2018, 07:56 
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Hello,

1993matias hat geschrieben:
Wow, that's an impressive addition of vehicles! Very nice to see! Most importantly though, the diesel locomotive class ME is missing in its four different paint schemes (I'd be happy to conribute).

Is there any way of extracting single vehicles for repainting? Some Lint 41 need new paint to drive on my Danish layout :)


You can use the Export function for that. Call "Trains"-"Car list", select the Lint41 and click "Export vehicle". This creates a .nfz file containing this vehicle and further (if data available) the .fz2/.fz4 files for it. For details see BAHN Help at "Export".

Kind regards,
Jan B.


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 Betreff des Beitrags: Re: Making a country in BAHN
BeitragVerfasst: Freitag 11. Mai 2018, 07:58 
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Guten Tag,

Dispothomas hat geschrieben:
Wo kann man die Fahrzeuge her bekommen die sehen ja suppi aus ;-)


Diese Fahrzeuge werden Bestandteil von BAHN 3.89 sein. Sie wurden bisher noch nicht veröffentlicht, es gibt derzeit keinen Download dazu.

Grüße,
Jan B.


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 Betreff des Beitrags: Re: Making a country in BAHN
BeitragVerfasst: Dienstag 15. Mai 2018, 19:37 
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No progress on the network, sadly, but repaints of existing trains have been made. See screenshots below, click on the images to go to the download page (jbss-bahnarchiv.de)

Lint 41 in three of four liveries (Nordjyske Jernbaner is missing)
Bild

Copenhagen S-train in the basic livery with no bike or wifi stickers:
Bild

RegioSprinter in the two liveries it has had
Bild

Öresund train in the new livery from 2018
Bild


There are some more vehicles I would like to make, but they are simply not repaints of existing vehicles. Are there any tips on how to make a vehicle from scratch? How do I start?


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 Betreff des Beitrags: Re: Making a country in BAHN
BeitragVerfasst: Donnerstag 17. Mai 2018, 14:50 
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Hello,

1993matias hat geschrieben:
No progress on the network, sadly, but repaints of existing trains have been made...


Nice. I have already added the Lint41 and RegioSprinter to BAHN.

Remarks:
Some of the Lint41 miss opening doors in Zoom1 or Zoom2. I did add them.

The Siemens/Duewag RS "original" in BAHN is too short for some historical reason. AFAIK the original length is 24800mm. In result, I did lengthen your cars to 52pix (Zoom1) resp. 104pix (Zoom2).

The download of the Öresund train did not work. Something like "you are not allowed to visit this place" occured instead.

1993matias hat geschrieben:
There are some more vehicles I would like to make, but they are simply not repaints of existing vehicles. Are there any tips on how to make a vehicle from scratch? How do I start?


A common way is to use a similar vehicle of the correct length as base. First, you need to know the original length. The length in BAHN Zoom1 should be calculated about (len in mm / 467..488) and then be rounded to a even number. In case of some unclear result, I prefer the shorter length, because we have much layouts with scale less than 64el/km but few layouts in higher scale.

Kind regards,
Jan B.


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 Betreff des Beitrags: Re: Making a country in BAHN
BeitragVerfasst: Donnerstag 17. Mai 2018, 18:32 
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Jan Bochmann hat geschrieben:
Hello,
[...] Remarks:
Some of the Lint41 miss opening doors in Zoom1 or Zoom2. I did add them.
Argh! I thought they were all fixed! I must have uploaded the wrong versions then :( Thank you for fixing them. Not the easiest thing to keep track of in the editor

Jan Bochmann hat geschrieben:
The Siemens/Duewag RS "original" in BAHN is too short for some historical reason. AFAIK the original length is 24800mm. In result, I did lengthen your cars to 52pix (Zoom1) resp. 104pix (Zoom2).

The download of the Öresund train did not work. Something like "you are not allowed to visit this place" occured instead.
Thank you. I can mail you the Öresund train if you want? It works for me on the website.

Jan Bochmann hat geschrieben:
A common way is to use a similar vehicle of the correct length as base. First, you need to know the original length. The length in BAHN Zoom1 should be calculated about (len in mm / 467..488) and then be rounded to a even number. In case of some unclear result, I prefer the shorter length, because we have much layouts with scale less than 64el/km but few layouts in higher scale.
Right, that seems like a better approach than starting from zero :) Thanks!


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