English Teamwork 2 planning and discussion

[1993matias]

How do you fill big water areas with water graphics? Would it affect the file size and performance negatively? I want to fill the bay/fjord leading into Coates all the way up from past Selden.

[1993matias]

First of all, my apologies for hogging the build schedule. Unfortunately, there was a planning mistake which lead to trains bumping into each other. We can't have that, can we? So a lot of tweaking and testing in my limited spare time had to be done. But here it is, fixed version 27.

Oh, and R44 is in service now too, driving between Selden and Haltwhistle. So let's call it version 28 now?

[Sascha Claus]

Hi,

How do you fill big water areas with water graphics?

copy & paste and a lot of patience …

Would it affect the file size and performance negatively?

Yes, layouts are internally divided into 32×32 squares (quadrants) and empty ones aren’t saved. If you paint an ocean, it changes a lot of quadrants from empty to full. But given today’s hard disk sizes …

More notable is the effect on performance if you are zooming out far enough that parts of the sea are visible. Then scrolling around will be visibly lagging.

Oh, and R44 is in service now too, driving between Selden and Haltwhistle. So let's call it version 28 now?

Looks like it’s time for a route list! Or even a map.

[Sascha Claus]

Tagchen,
as we are all interested in the well-being of our propserous citizens, a local private railway is planning to operate open-access trains to shuttle locals and tourists for day trips and longer holidays into the Cairngorms (famous for hiking and skiing ⛷⛸):

Ski-Trains.png

Matias, if your work as correspondent for Seat61 allows, could you offer a timetable slot for for a Coates -> Cairndow train in the morning and another slot for a Cairndow -> Coates train in the evening? Maybe even a second pair around midday?

Departure somewhere around 6:00 to 8:00 in the morning (or both), arrival back about 18:00 to 22:00. The trains could carry additional through-coaches from and to night trains.

[1993matias]

Tagchen,
as we are all interested in the well-being of our propserous citizens, a local private railway is planning to operate open-access trains to shuttle locals and tourists for day trips and longer holidays into the Cairngorms (famous for hiking and skiing ⛷⛸):
Ski-Trains.png
Matias, if your work as correspondent for Seat61 allows, could you offer a timetable slot for for a Coates -> Cairndow train in the morning and another slot for a Cairndow -> Coates train in the evening? Maybe even a second pair around midday?

Departure somewhere around 6:00 to 8:00 in the morning (or both), arrival back about 18:00 to 22:00. The trains could carry additional through-coaches from and to night trains.

Beautiful! Are they daytime trains or night trains to arrive early morning? What is the maximum speed? I suppose there is a locomotive change too? Should the train take the slow, scenic route via Haltwhistle in the mountains, or the faster coastal route via Keswick and Selden? Do you have any preference to which station to arrive in Coates? What size are the trains?
Is the departure time from the mountains, the border, or Coates? I could definitely make an ~7:30 departure possible
Keep in mind that Coates to Cairndow takes 3-4 hours depending on route, speed, and shunting manoeuvres.

I may add placeholder sleeper wagons for when I extend Montspoor eastwards. By then there may be more night trains that could have parts for the ski hills

The man in seat 61 is looking forward to more ski trains

[Sascha Claus]

’n Ahmdchen,

Beautiful! Are they daytime trains or night trains to arrive early morning?

I was planning somthing that leaves Coates/Torkham/Inverfyne/etc. early morning and arrives in the Cairngorms before noon, similar to the Canopus’ times between Leipzig and Prague (and back), so that you can sleep at home but have as much time as possible at the destination (and leave as late as possible while still being at home before midnight).

But I’m certainly not opposed to through coaches or additional, earlier trains from further away (or later evening trains to further away) – e. g. onto a ferry. Nor to competing trains with other liveries.

What is the maximum speed? I suppose there is a locomotive change too?

Since all lines within the Cairndow – St. Cath’s – Queensbury – Inverchorachan – Cairndow circle are unelectrified, there has to be some shunting somewhere. The Montspoor, Lecht & Queensbury Railway (MLQ)† would prefer to use its own electric motive power where possible. It currently rosters a lot of second-hand electric locomotives capable of 120, 140 and 160 km/h.‡

Should the train take the slow, scenic route via Haltwhistle in the mountains, or the faster coastal route via Keswick and Selden? Do you have any preference to which station to arrive in Coates? What size are the trains?
Is the departure time from the mountains, the border, or Coates?

(1) Depends on whether tourists would want to arrive in the mountains as early as possible; I can see a market for both. Two trains a day, one taking the scenic route; or on alternating days.
(2) No, no preference for a station Coates. Except: convenient to reach by local transit.
(3) As long as practical: short enough to fit all the stations were the will be stopping, and long enough to make at least two sections to haul into mountains via different routes.
(4) Times are from/to Coates, leaving between 5 and 7 o’clock in the morning and arriving in the hills at 10 o’clock.

I could definitely make an ~7:30 departure possible
Keep in mind that Coates to Cairndow takes 3-4 hours depending on route, speed, and shunting manoeuvres.

Which doesn’t combine well with my target timetable.

I may add placeholder sleeper wagons for when I extend Montspoor eastwards. By then there may be more night trains that could have parts for the ski hills

The Lecht ski (and hiking and mountainbike) centre is planning big (it even has a subsidiary of the same name in the real world ).

Lecht-trains.png

†
‡ ignoring the fact that they were made for 3 kV – sometimes you simply go by colour

[1993matias]

[...] I’m certainly not opposed to through coaches or additional, earlier trains from further away (or later evening trains to further away) – e. g. onto a ferry. Nor to competing trains with other liveries.

Some more trains may be added later then - but it will not be until the eastern parts of Montspoor have been built.

Since all lines within the Cairndow – St. Cath’s – Queensbury – Inverchorachan – Cairndow circle are unelectrified, there has to be some shunting somewhere. The Montspoor, Lecht & Queensbury Railway (MLQ)† would prefer to use its own electric motive power where possible. It currently rosters a lot of second-hand electric locomotives capable of 120, 140 and 160 km/h.‡

A maximum speed of 160 kph is definitely to be preferred, but 140 kph would work. 120 kph is too slow unless it should be overtaken by other trains - this would increase journey times significantly.

(1) Depends on whether tourists would want to arrive in the mountains as early as possible; I can see a market for both. Two trains a day, one taking the scenic route; or on alternating days.
(2) No, no preference for a station Coates. Except: convenient to reach by local transit.
(3) As long as practical: short enough to fit all the stations were the will be stopping, and long enough to make at least two sections to haul into mountains via different routes.
(4) Times are from/to Coates, leaving between 5 and 7 o’clock in the morning and arriving in the hills at 10 o’clock.

(1) The early departure and late arrival will use the coastal route. Maybe a daytime train will use the mountaneous route - possible as through coaches attached to existing IC4 services.
(2) Ok, I think Coates West should have a free platform at the desired times
(3) Is a length of 200 metres (7-8 wagons) ok? Even 250-350 metres will fit in Montspoor on the coastal route
(4) I found a departure slot at 6:31 from Coates West, arriving in Cairndow at an estimated 9:15 in the morning. Due to the fixed hourly timetable, this slot is available once per hour all day (except afternoon rush hour). An hour earlier would also work, but poor people getting up so early to take the train

The train is expected to stop in Coates, Selden, Keswick, and Redbanks.

[Sascha Claus]

Moorchn,

Some more trains may be added later then - but it will not be until the eastern parts of Montspoor have been built.

don’t forget that there are other companies (including the state railways) that want to run night trains and other destinations around.

A maximum speed of 160 kph is definitely to be preferred, but 140 kph would work. 120 kph is too slow unless it should be overtaken by other trains - this would increase journey times significantly.

OK. I didn’t throughly check your engineer’s line reference and simply assumed that a line through the mountains would be slow.

(1) The early departure and late arrival will use the coastal route. Maybe a daytime train will use the mountaneous route - possible as through coaches attached to existing IC4 services.
(2) Ok, I think Coates West should have a free platform at the desired times
(3) Is a length of 200 metres (7-8 wagons) ok? Even 250-350 metres will fit in Montspoor on the coastal route
(4) I found a departure slot at 6:31 from Coates West, arriving in Cairndow at an estimated 9:15 in the morning. Due to the fixed hourly timetable, this slot is available once per hour all day (except afternoon rush hour). An hour earlier would also work, […]

(2) Free platforms … this time of the day would be rush-hour for leaving daytrips (including business trips), arriving night trains and rush-hour for commuters all at once, always a problem even in in the real world.
(3) 7–9 wagons are ok. That allows them to be split to 2–3 destinations with 2–3 cars each (thus tackling the mountains from multiple sides ).
(4a) The 120-km/h-IR needs 15min from Cairndow to Inverchorachan, so there’s time for shunting and changing from electric to diesel locomotive.
(4b)The remaining slots could be used by fast goods or motorail trains. Or maybe a daily Windsurfer’s Special to St. John’s? (4c) An hour earlier might be used by a night train from further east or north ⛴.

And by the way, the Warstones Railway is currently looking to purchase some second-hand Itinos for cross-border traffic to Montspoor.

Warstones-Y1+Y31.png

[1993matias]

A maximum speed of 160 kph is definitely to be preferred, but 140 kph would work. 120 kph is too slow unless it should be overtaken by other trains - this would increase journey times significantly.

OK. I didn’t throughly check your engineer’s line reference and simply assumed that a line through the mountains would be slow.

Through the mountains 120 kph should be enough, but it may be slowed down even more when approaching Coates (due to possible overtakings) if it is not coupled as extra coaches on IC4. But IC4 is timed for 160 kph operation. The engineer's handbook doesn't exist yet
I'll need to make a full working timetable for that route to see where to possibly fit in more trains.

(2) Free platforms … this time of the day would be rush-hour for leaving daytrips (including business trips), arriving night trains and rush-hour for commuters all at once, always a problem even in in the real world.
(3) 7–9 wagons are ok. That allows them to be split to 2–3 destinations with 2–3 cars each (thus tackling the mountains from multiple sides ).
(4a) The 120-km/h-IR needs 15min from Cairndow to Inverchorachan, so there’s time for shunting and changing from electric to diesel locomotive.
(4b)The remaining slots could be used by fast goods or motorail trains. Or maybe a daily Windsurfer’s Special to St. John’s? (4c) An hour earlier might be used by a night train from further east or north ⛴.

And by the way, the Warstones Railway is currently looking to purchase some second-hand Itinos for cross-border traffic to Montspoor.

(2) Don't worry, the three longest platforms have not been allocated any trains yet. I'm saving them for long distance services
(3) Don't forget luggage vans for the skis and bikes!
(4b-4c) More trains are always welcome! But don't expect much activity until the eastern part of Montspoor has been built. Fast good trains could be mail trains, for example. 100 kph freight trains should be able to use the same slot without stopping, but there could potentially be several more slots with overtakings on the way.
(5) Return timings will be available once I have made a timetable graph for the opposite direction. Any specific times that you prefer at the border near Cairndow?

Good for you to choose the Itino! A good train! Y1 are also really good, but just a generation older. Actually based on the Fiat ALn 668, the Y1 is an Italian design!

[Sascha Claus]

G’day,

[…] if it is not coupled as extra coaches on IC4.

I assume that there isn’t room for 7 to 9 coaches when coupled on IC4?

(3) Don't forget luggage vans for the skis and bikes!

If the train is split into small pieces of two to three coaches for each destination, only half-luggage/half-passenger coaches make any sense, since single van for the whole train is hard to split.

(4b-4c) […] Fast good trains could be mail trains, for example. […}

Something like the Parcel InterCity, with trains in red-and-yellow, brown, white, orange, … would be nice. But mail trains might prefer the night.

(5) […] Any specific times that you prefer at the border near Cairndow?

So that the return trains arrive in Coates early enough to get some sleep that night, i. e. between 22:00 and 23:00.

Good for you to choose the Itino! A good train! Y1 are also really good, but just a generation older.

Y1 will be declared the old DMUs that were replaced by the Itino and and relegated to rush-hour trains.

Now I’m wondering about replacing the RegioSwinger tilting trains with Y2/IC2/IC3 DMUs.

[1993matias]

[…] if it is not coupled as extra coaches on IC4.

I assume that there isn’t room for 7 to 9 coaches when coupled on IC4?

Or the IC4 could be extended too - but then it wouldn't be a private operator train, but a Montspoor Railways train extended to you. 7-9 coaches would probably be maximum length on IC4.

[...]half-luggage/half-passenger coaches make any sense, since single van for the whole train is hard to split.

Montspoor Railways have wagons that are 1/3rd luggage van and 2/3rds seating area.

4b-4c: Mail trains are welcome. I have already plans for domestic mail trains, and parcel trains will be included too. Most IC trains will have checked in luggage option even for people not travelling on the train - kind of an express parcel delivery service. I don't know where the mail train hub will be or what times they will go.

5: Arrival time in Cairndow for Coates:
I'd suggest leaving Redbanks for Coates on the coastal line at 19:50, with an arrival time of 22:00. This means leaving Cairndow at around 19:00 or thereabouts.

Y1 will be declared the old DMUs that were replaced by the Itino and and relegated to rush-hour trains.

Now I’m wondering about replacing the RegioSwinger tilting trains with Y2/IC2/IC3 DMUs.

Y2/IC3 don't tilt, unfortunately, but can go faster (180 kph). IC2 derived from IC3 can only go 140 kph (in the original design).
Also, IC3 is a design from 1989 But by any means, let your trains be varied. It only adds to the fun - who knows, maybe someone ordered IC3 trains on tilting bogies? The first IC3 were diesel-hydraulic, so that makes it easier for tilting. Later models were re-engined for diesel-mechanical transmission.

[Sascha Claus]

G’morning,

Or the IC4 could be extended too - but then it wouldn't be a private operator train, but a Montspoor Railways train extended to you.

as long as it’s a streak of a different colour.

7-9 coaches would probably be maximum length on IC4.

ordinary IC4 + 7-9 coaches of Ski train?

Montspoor Railways have wagons that are 1/3rd luggage van and 2/3rds seating area.

But they are the wrong colour. I’m going to rebuild some of the Czech Beer coaches. (Isn’t that a great kind of letter classification? )

I don't know where the mail train hub will be or what times they will go.

Somewhere where you can make a fast getaway in all directions. The area between Guard’s Road and Farris looks good.

I'd suggest leaving Redbanks for Coates on the coastal line at 19:50, with an arrival time of 22:00. This means leaving Cairndow at around 19:00 or thereabouts.

Good, that means laving the hills somewhere around 17:00 or 18:00.

Y2/IC3 don't tilt, unfortunately, but can go faster (180 kph). IC2 derived from IC3 can only go 140 kph (in the original design).

Tilting is not essential and not really needed north of the Inverfyne Mainline. I’m more worried about the hillclimbing performance, especially south of the Inverfyne Mainline. And whether they can be coupled with Belgian AM 96s.

Also, IC3 is a design from 1989 But by any means, let your trains be varied. It only adds to the fun […]

Who cares about age? In real life, but not in BAHN. The locomotives used by the Montspoor, Lecht & Queensbury Railway are several decades older.

[1993matias]

7-9 coaches would probably be maximum length on IC4.

ordinary IC4 + 7-9 coaches of Ski train?

Total length not exceeding 7-9 coaches.

I don't know where the mail train hub will be or what times they will go.

Somewhere where you can make a fast getaway in all directions. The area between Guard’s Road and Farris looks good.

The big area around Guard's Road will be a huge freight yard. I'm not sure if it will be the location of the main mail distribution hub since it could've been located somewhere else for historical reasons. I know that the western distribution hub will be in Redbanks somewhere

Tilting is not essential and not really needed north of the Inverfyne Mainline. I’m more worried about the hillclimbing performance, especially south of the Inverfyne Mainline. And whether they can be coupled with Belgian AM 96s.
[...]
Who cares about age? In real life, but not in BAHN. The locomotives used by the Montspoor, Lecht & Queensbury Railway are several decades older.

After reading a bit more about it I can tell you that some Spanish variants of the IC3 indeed had tilting capabilities. Just in case you actually need it Hillclimbing performance may be somewhat tricky. During tests in the US it was noted that the IC3 was weak on steep hills and that it easily overheated during long, slow climbs:

The Flexliner stalled once, at Fulda, the steepest point on the climb, as its engine control computer shut down the underfloor-mounted diesel engines to idle after they overheated

https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/ ... ?4,1196512

Hillclimbing performance can be improved with stronger engines and water cooling instead of air cooling.

Coupling with the AM96 may be tricky since the AM96 is a completely different train but with an IC3-derived rubber nose. Thankfully, IC3 has an electric sister, the IR4. They regularly drive in multiple operation in Denmark and frequently couple/decouple in minutes in normal operation.

[Sascha Claus]

Hi ho,

I know that the western distribution hub will be in Redbanks somewhere

hmm … then another hub in Cairndow would be really close, but one in Inverfyne (city) would be the same distance from Redbanks as Coates. Also, it would be close to something else.

After reading a bit more about it I can tell you that some Spanish variants of the IC3 indeed had tilting capabilities. Just in case you actually need it

I assume they slanted the sides inward, to avoid hitting something on the inside of the curve.

Hillclimbing performance may be somewhat tricky. During tests in the US it was noted that the IC3 was weak on steep hills and that it easily overheated during long, slow climbs:

The Flexliner stalled once, at Fulda, the steepest point on the climb, as its engine control computer shut down the underfloor-mounted diesel engines to idle after they overheated

https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/ ... ?4,1196512

The Danish technicians shrugged. "We have no hills in Denmark!" was their only comment.

But OK, the Krauss-Maffei diesels didn’t fare much better.

Thankfully, IC3 has an electric sister, the IR4. They regularly drive in multiple operation in Denmark and frequently couple/decouple in minutes in normal operation.

Electric sisters aren’t particularly good if the only electrified lines are the Inverfyne Mainline, the Queensbury lines and some Inverfyne suburban routes. And there should be some lines remaining for G2000-hauled coaches, not everything run by the rubber noses.

Edit: Are you planning to extend my IR20 Inverfyne (city) – Kidderminster Town – Bromsgrove – Redditch & Studley – Henley-in-Arden into Montspoor (to Camrose, Trimsaran and Redbanks)? In this case, it might be useful to decide on a common kind of rolling stock.

Cairndow-routes.png

[1993matias]

Hi ho,
[...] Are you planning to extend my IR20 Inverfyne (city) – Kidderminster Town – Bromsgrove – Redditch & Studley – Henley-in-Arden into Montspoor (to Camrose, Trimsaran and Redbanks)? In this case, it might be useful to decide on a common kind of rolling stock.

IR20 would be extended to Redbanks via the junction at Trimsaran. IR10 on the other hand doesn't seem to have a line over the hills to Montspoor from Alvechurch. Or would you rather extend IR?? to Montspoor? Although it seems like a bit of a detour to go to Redbanks the long way. Maybe a train a couple of times per day to Pembroke from Cairndow via Henley could use that connection? But that's an issue for a future time, I'd prefer to focus on IR20 for now.
Which rolling stock did you have in mind for IR20? I'd prefer DMU since the platforms at Redbanks are already quite full and there is not much space for shuntin operations yet